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All bout america

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Re: All bout america

Post  Super Mega King on 21st March 2011, 6:17 pm

Why are you double posting so often? Are you that fixated on raising your post count?

4.) You are so so missing my point. My point is that we sold them weapons that are being used against us. This is true. Selling weapons and technology to other country only asks us to repeat history. Are you so delusional that you cannot comprehend this very basic principle of warfare?

3.) We are pulling out of one of two wars, actually. We are pulling out of Iraq (hopefully) but are still getting involved in Afghanistan. Oh, plus we're now getting involved in Libya. You seem to disagree with me and agree with me at random points, I'm not sure if you even know what you're talking about anymore. Military spending is way too high. This is because of two unnecessary wars. The two wars and the military spending being too high has caused a recession in our economy. By reducing military spending, we can use the money better elsewhere. Is there anything here that you disagree with? You are going into the military yet you are anti-war? Alright.

2.) The debt is unnecessary. With progressive help, it's possible to go to college and not end up debt. Does that not seem like a benefit to you? You seem pretty fixated on benefits. You do not understand that loans and debts are only necessary as long as we don't have progressive help. I am not going to respond to this topic anymore until you answer this question that you have been avoiding for the last page: Why would progressive help and progressive tax rates not work in this country? Why?

Having different opinions doesn't make you stupid, but blatantly ignoring points of the counterargument does.

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Re: All bout america

Post  andrew on 21st March 2011, 6:29 pm

No I just missed finland's post, I'll edit my last post next time, I dont care about how many posts I have lol. you can reset me to 0 and I wouldn't care
4) I never denied selling weapons to them, yes they're being used against us, it was a mistake, I never denied that. But if an ally is in need, like lets say France needed weapons, I would not have a problem selling some to them. We just basically wanted to indirectly expel the communists from that area, so we sold some weapons to the people they were occupying to fight on their own. We also trained them, which is also biting us in the ass at the moment

Sorry but I've got to go I'll extend this post and answer 2+3 when I get back
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Re: All bout america

Post  Super Mega King on 21st March 2011, 6:32 pm

4.) Yes, but the point is, they WERE our allies at the time as France is our ally now. We could sell France weapons and be at war with them in fifty years. Likely? No, not at all, but my point is that what goes around comes around.

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Re: All bout america

Post  Jagdgeschwader on 21st March 2011, 7:37 pm

This is a rather senseless topic now, not saying it should be closed, but it's getting repetitive and no further points will be addressed, we've shot all of our volleys since Erik just repeated himself of what he said before. Same with Finland.

I will leave the topic with a few facts.
As of January 2011...
1. The US has the world's largest economy (Source: World Bank)
2. Defense spending is 4.6% of our GDP (Source: World Bank)
3. Germany has the 4th largest economy in the world (not bad)
4. Communism is still not the way to go. (Source: History)

Also Andrew, just saying right now in my opinion you have much to learn about your side. As do all of us.
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Re: All bout america

Post  andrew on 21st March 2011, 7:43 pm

4. I still believe we should help close allies when they need us, meaning France and Britain. Other then that I don't see what we're arguing about here. We both agree selling them weapons, training them how to use the weapons, then just backing out was a mistake.

3. I'm joining the military because of the benefits, not because I want to fight in a war. By the time I join, the whole Libya situation should be over and we should be done with the wars we're in now. If it was a direct threat to us, then I agree with a war, but if its something as pointless as what we're doing now, I disagree, can someone enlighten me on how that is just so hard to believe? Just because I'm enlisting does not mean I'm totally right wing
Once we pull out, military spending will go down, yes Libya is a problem, but I doubt we're going to sit there for 12 years.

2. A) More people will avoid taxes B) The more someone makes the more they take away C) Its takes away equality, yes people would have generally the same amount of money, but that would mean some people pay more then others. I just don't like the idea of someone being picked to pay more just because they earn more. That's already the case with income tax, but there's nothing wrong with that.
Basically, the progressive tax is borderline communism. It takes away freedom from the rich because they get singled out to pay more. That's all

EDIT: I agree with jag. Besides, no matter what we say or do on this topic will in no way change the world. So we're basically arguing for the sake of arguing
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Re: All bout america

Post  Super Mega King on 21st March 2011, 7:49 pm

I do not feel as if you have adequately explained why progressive tax rates wouldn't work in this country even though they work in others and as such will not post in this topic until you have.

In fact, I'll admit that I only read point 2.) of your post.

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Re: All bout america

Post  eaustinn36 on 21st March 2011, 7:57 pm

Wow I need to monitor this topic more often.

1) Jag, there is a difference between repetition and expanding on a point. Not to mention a couple things are repeated for the simple reason that they have never gotten a response yet. As for your points:

1 - Well congrats to us I guess, but largest doesn't mean best. Not to mention much of this countries wealth is "on paper", meaning most if it in reality doesn't exist, but according to our credit cards it does. China also owns us inside and out, and that amount is only dramatically increase over time. Saying we have "the world's largest economy" for those reasons is a little misleading.

2 - Alright, 4.6% then. Doesn't change the fact that it is higher than anyone else.

3 - Not bad? Alright then. Not going to go into too much here, since there isn't much to say, but they are the #1 exporter of good in the world. Where do we rank? Well, we're the #1 importer (not a good thing), and exporter? Not even on the charts.

4 - Alright, this point just makes it sound like your getting all of the info from a non-credible source. Your fourth point is highly opinion based. That being said, do I think Communism is the way to go? Absolutely not. What about Capitalism? Nope. It's been proven that a mixed economy (parts of both) work best.

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2) Andrew, going back to one of your points way back: You make it sound like that taxation on the rich goes up exponentially with income. What I mean by this, is that you make it sound like a millionaires income after taxes will be lower or almost equal to someone near the poverty line. This is not even remotely true. You mention taking all of their hard earned money? Not even putting a dent in it. There is still plenty of incentive to get rich in the nation, even with a progressive tax rate. While your taxes with gross income may go up, your net income after taxes is still going up as well.

And you are anti-war, but pro-military? How does that work? You encourage massive military spending for the good benefits and training we receive? What is the point of spending billions in training if we're never going to use it? (basing on your point of being anti-war here). Why not just spend the money elsewhere on benefits for the common people directly; cut-out the "military middleman". Either I misinterpreted what you said, or I just found a massive waste of money in your perspective.

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Re: All bout america

Post  Super Mega King on 21st March 2011, 7:58 pm

+1

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Re: All bout america

Post  BLACK SNOW 13 on 21st March 2011, 8:01 pm

-1
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Re: All bout america

Post  Jagdgeschwader on 21st March 2011, 8:04 pm

I must apologize because I forgot to report one thing. According to CBO, and I quote:
"The drivers of the expense increases (expressed as % of GDP) are Medicare & Medicaid (1.7%), Defense (1.6%), Income Security such as unemployment benefits and food stamps (1.4%), Social Security (0.6%) and all other categories (1.2%)."

Also, $4.45 trillion of this debt is held by foreign nations or roughly a third of the debt, the largest being China at $1.1 trillion and the second being Japan at around 880 billion. What may make some people happy, is that if President Obama's budget plans go according to plan (that's redundant again) it should level off the debt soon, but in my opinion NOTHING ever goes to plan. Mixed economy? Yes. Capitalism by itself let's monopolies run wild which benefits ONLY the rich. The best in my mind would be what you said, but more specifically like a 4 part capitalism 1 part other if you would accept the metaphor.

Other than that, I think we can all agree that we all see problems with our country, as do other countries with their own I can only imagine. I think we can also agree that our views our shaped by our roles in life, how we approach them, and that they're unlikely to change just by a petty internet disagreement.
This is why bipartisanship doesn't work. Our views on these topics are just so different to one another, that there's hardly anything we CAN agree on. One party has to be in control, and whomever that party is, controls the fate of the country, and they screw it up, they screw it up. If they make it better, they make it better.

Now that's it, I'm finished. I'll give the opposition the last word.
Also: Regime targets have been destroyed by NATO ordinance in Libya. Go us!


Last edited by Jagdgeschwader on 21st March 2011, 8:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: All bout america

Post  andrew on 21st March 2011, 8:12 pm

How about this.

I'm anti-dumb wars, pro-necessary wars
Meaning, if we were being directly threatened by another country, I'm pro, if its similar to what we're doing now, anti.

How else are you guys confused?
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Re: All bout america

Post  mboddz751 on 21st March 2011, 9:23 pm

andr_00_ew wrote:How about this.

I'm anti-dumb wars, pro-necessary wars
Meaning, if we were being directly threatened by another country, I'm pro, if its similar to what we're doing now, anti.

How else are you guys confused?

you have yet to answer mega king's question......
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Re: All bout america

Post  andrew on 21st March 2011, 9:30 pm

mboddz751 wrote:

you have yet to answer mega king's question......

about progressive tax, that was answered on the previous page
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Re: All bout america

Post  Super Mega King on 21st March 2011, 9:32 pm

Andrew, are you saying that this happens in literally every single industrialized country this is not America?

"2. A) More people will avoid taxes B) The more someone makes the more they take away C) Its takes away equality, yes people would have generally the same amount of money, but that would mean some people pay more then others. I just don't like the idea of someone being picked to pay more just because they earn more. That's already the case with income tax, but there's nothing wrong with that."

Again, you are under the impression that progressive tax makes the rich poor. This is not true at all.

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Re: All bout america

Post  andrew on 21st March 2011, 9:37 pm

It doesn't make the rich poor, but it makes them pay more money. If they have millions maybe it doesn't really impact them that much, but they don't deserve to give away what they earn. Stop reading AROUND what I'm saying, this has been going on since LAST NIGHT.
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Re: All bout america

Post  Super Mega King on 21st March 2011, 9:38 pm

You are talking in circles.

You do not know what you are talking about.

I can find no other possible reasoning for the things you're saying.

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Re: All bout america

Post  andrew on 21st March 2011, 9:45 pm

Why shouldn't a person have control over their own money?
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Re: All bout america

Post  Super Mega King on 21st March 2011, 10:40 pm

Why shouldn't we help improve the quality of life for poor or disenfranchised Americans by removing a small amount of the rich's total money, small enough that they are likely to not be really affected by it at all? Why should a poor person be expected to be taxed as much as someone who has millions or billions? Why?

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Re: All bout america

Post  eaustinn36 on 21st March 2011, 11:18 pm

Jagdgeschwader wrote:Mixed economy? Yes. Capitalism by itself let's monopolies run wild which benefits ONLY the rich. The best in my mind would be what you said, but more specifically like a 4 part capitalism 1 part other if you would accept the metaphor.

Other than that, I think we can all agree that we all see problems with our country, as do other countries with their own I can only imagine. I think we can also agree that our views our shaped by our roles in life, how we approach them, and that they're unlikely to change just by a petty internet disagreement.
This is why bipartisanship doesn't work. Our views on these topics are just so different to one another, that there's hardly anything we CAN agree on. One party has to be in control, and whomever that party is, controls the fate of the country, and they screw it up, they screw it up. If they make it better, they make it better.

I can agree on that, although I would change the ratios a bit (probably half and half (socialism/capitalism)). As for the second part, I can also agree. While some people in this topic might be "swayed" to see a perspective that they didn't see before, generally, once you get to a certain age, the ideals imposed on you (through parents, personal experience, etc..) probably won't change. My views definately won't for certain. I've looked into politics many times, and I have come to see both sides of the arguement and understand them very well. As for Bipartisanship not working.. well, it's going to have to work. Unfortunately compromise is a common option. With democrats and republicans alike, not much gets done. It's always the minority party blocking the other, while the "other" is trying to undo everything set in the past administration. Granted occasionally there is a "breakthrough" where stuff gets passed, but nowadays, not really. The only way real progress is made is when either party is in near 100% control, but that won't happen. The negative side to 100% control though is that one party doesn't consider the views of the other, to allow tham to see the situation from all angles. There are negatives and positives to both.

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@Andrew - I can see your viewpoint, in how that "noone should have the right to touch my money". I can see how the rich defend this belief, as greed plays into having more money than needed. Multi-millionaires don't "need" all of their money; the people dieing of starvation do. Taxes, even high taxes, won't impact the rich at all. Sure they say it will (defending their money, I mean, who wouldn't?), but in the end they'll get by. Lets hypothetically say the taxes will impact the rich though.

Let's look at 2 people (made up to convey point):

A) Sarah Wentworth - Income: $23.7 million / yr - Owns own business, 26 cars, and 3 houses, including a vacation home in Hawaii.

B) James DeFranco - Income - $14,644 / yr - Currently homeless with 1 child. Works 2 full-time jobs, and averages 4 hours of sleep each night. Has no health insurance (job does not provide), and is worried that if injured, will lose both jobs.


Granted this is an extreme situation, and I could throw in the "healthcare" view in on it (lack of universal), but let's focus on the economics for now. Lets say both pay the same tax rate; how is this fair?
- Now let's say Sarah's taxes go up because a millionaires tax in imposed. Sarah is pissed because now she doesn't have quite enough money to buy the 2.3 million dollar ferrari she wanted. Later on up on capital hill: The money received from the millionaires goes into building a new homeless shelter, and other small programs. Because of this, James is given a place to stay, instead of the cold alleyways of the city. Other finacial aid given to him allows him to manage his bills, and allows him to get by. Eventually, he made enough to rent an old apartment. It isn't a glorious life, but he is happy he, and his son, is alive.

Yes, this situation is hypothetical, but it would be ignorant to think that something very similar to this doesn't happen. To defend "Sarah" getting her 27th car instead of "James" getting enough food to even survive is just greed on a maximum level. If your rich, or even middle class, I can see how one can disagree with the outcome. However, just wait (if ever) until a bank one day forcloses on your house; your car is reposessed, and your kicked out onto the street. Your opinion on things will change fast; unfortuantely, many people must hit rock bottom to see the importance of it.

NOTE: In no way am I hoping that anyone here will "hit rock bottom". Just making the point.

(if this above doesn't make sense, ignore it. My intent for the example was to help, not to confuse anyone)

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Re: All bout america

Post  Jagdgeschwader on 21st March 2011, 11:34 pm

Realistically speaking Andrew a progressive tax is just a percent of your income being a tax. Like sales tax.

IMHO nothing really wrong with it.
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Re: All bout america

Post  andrew on 21st March 2011, 11:42 pm

Erik, there are shelters that provide food and shelter during night time everywhere. NOBODY in this country has it that bad. Especially if they have a child that they need to care for. Also, they are more then qualified for food stamps, maybe not welfare because he has 2 jobs, but definitely food stamps
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Re: All bout america

Post  Super Mega King on 21st March 2011, 11:44 pm

andr_00_ew wrote:Erik, there are shelters that provide food and shelter during night time everywhere. NOBODY in this country has it that bad. Especially if they have a child that they need to care for. Also, they are more then qualified for food stamps, maybe not welfare because he has 2 jobs, but definitely food stamps

You don't really understand it at all. There are not shelters everywhere. There is an overcrowding of shelters; haven't you ever seen a homeless man on the street?

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Re: All bout america

Post  andrew on 21st March 2011, 11:49 pm

Most of the time to be honest homeless people put themselves in that position. I live in Tampa, there are plenty of homeless shelters and places for them too go. Most of them are just too drunk to do anything about it. You have to let yourself hit rock bottom, the government can't just take your life away from you. Most of them don't even care about recovering, those that do seek help
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Re: All bout america

Post  andrew on 21st March 2011, 11:51 pm

Sorry for double post, what would you do if you were homeless? Just sit in an alleyway and let yourself starve? That's the only way that will happen, if you let yourself. Nobody is going to walk up to you and help you put your life back together.

I understand that sometimes they aren't mentally healthy or are having a hard time, but nothing is stopping them from getting help.

There is nothing we can do for those people except feel bad, and hope that they decide to get their life together.
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Re: All bout america

Post  eaustinn36 on 21st March 2011, 11:58 pm

andr_00_ew wrote:Erik, there are shelters that provide food and shelter during night time everywhere. NOBODY in this country has it that bad. Especially if they have a child that they need to care for. Also, they are more then qualified for food stamps, maybe not welfare because he has 2 jobs, but definitely food stamps

Granted it was made up, but this is why many people need a reality check. SOME people do have it that bad, or close to.

And you bring up something great: Food stamps. Great program that helps out the poor. BUT WAIT! Who pays and funds food stamps? The federal government. Who funds the federal government? Well, generally that would be the average American taxpayer. So wait a minute.. what is this? People higher class than "James" paying higher taxes to help James. Redistribution of wealth?!? Oh my god, it's socialism. We need to stop this socialist program at once; let them starve!

This is why the people with higher income should pay more. If the gov't lets say needs an average of $50,000 per person in taxes, would it be fair to tax everyone the same? Sure the rich would love it: $50,000 of of over $27,000,000 is still pretty much 27mill. What about the people making less than $50,000 each year? Well yeah, they're screwed. With a progressive tax rate, the poor pay less, but a much reasonable percentage of their income. The rich would pay a lot more, but wouldn't feel it (as said before). Redistribution of wealth to some degree through taxation is essential; there are many good gov't programs that help the less fortunate.

I'll stop there though, considering I think i'm drifting off topic from your original point too much.

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EDIT (b/c of recent posts): If you really believe all homeless are homeless because they "choose to be", or are lazy, then I really feel sorry for you. A massive reality check is needed here.


Last edited by eaustinn36 on 22nd March 2011, 12:00 am; edited 2 times in total

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