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Post  Masta Shef 5th April 2011, 8:06 pm

Tophat 44 wrote:Tabbaco is legal. Why not pot?

Thats all i have to say.

Make Tobacco illegal. Tobacco is causes cancer.
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Post  Jagdgeschwader 5th April 2011, 8:27 pm

Nobody ever killed somebody in a tobacco deal.

Marijuana is just as harmful. If not more so in some cases.
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Post  mboddz751 5th April 2011, 8:31 pm

don't associate the violent people with the substance itself. If anything because it is not legalized the criminals run the trade and distribution of it so that makes it even more violent then it needs to be. In addition to this the amount of profit that a state could make compared to the spending used to combat it is colossal.

Besides that we market alcohol which is much worse then weed in almost every single way. The government has yet to realize that its the prohibition effect: you criminalize a substance in demand and it gets driven underground into the hands of criminals, however if you legalize it at least your country can make some form of profit through business and taxation.
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Post  Jagdgeschwader 5th April 2011, 9:55 pm

mboddz751 wrote:don't associate the violent people with the substance itself. If anything because it is not legalized the criminals run the trade and distribution of it so that makes it even more violent then it needs to be. In addition to this the amount of profit that a state could make compared to the spending used to combat it is colossal.

Circular logic. By your examples we might as well legalize methamphetamines so that there's 'responsible' people selling it instead of criminals.
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Post  Masta Shef 5th April 2011, 10:35 pm

Let me add on to what mboddz said in a way he would probably say it. Marijuana is no worse than alcohol if not better(intoxication/healthwise). I've never smoked so I can't really speak to it's effects as far as that goes, but it's not exactly comparable to amphetamines, pills, or narcotics as far as health or legality.
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Post  steveeeee 5th April 2011, 11:47 pm

honestly, the only way marijuana can kill is because the crazy bastards that sell the stuff are greedy and try to steal from others, which causes the death of said crazy bastard.

and you don't have to deal tobacco to get killed, it kills thousands already,

and who ever told you marijuana makes you violent is BEYOND wrong haha.

and no one ever talks about the benefits of hemp itself, it has so many uses. it can be made into paper and possibly fuel, which is still being tested or so i've read. if people used hemp instead of trees, that would shut up the environmentalists and save the US a lot of money because unlike a tree..hemp doesn't take 40 years to grow so it would be drastically cheaper..but who knows what it can do, if people would just forget about it being used only as a psychedelic drug, and find out what we could really do with it we might get somewhere.

most people actually believe marijuana is as bad as meth, pills, heroin and coke, its nothing like that. you don't spend 500 dollars a day on marijuana and become insanely addicted. all that happens when you smoke it, you become calm and relaxed, and unlike tobacco it doesn't contain over 1000 unnatural chemicals. thats why i always thought it was funny when i would be taught about drugs my teacher would tell the class it has a higher chance to cause cancer then alcohol or cigarettes, and compare one marijuana cigarette to smoking a whole pack of tobacco cigarettes.

I also don't understand why there are so many ads in the media saying marijuana is harmful, but the amount of ads for tobacco and alcohol have nearly went away. you almost never see any anti alcohol ads that tell you thousands die every year from alcohol consumption.
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Post  Jagdgeschwader 6th April 2011, 12:39 am

I will address all of your points.

steveeee wrote:honestly, the only way marijuana can kill is because the crazy bastards that sell the stuff are greedy and try to steal from others, which causes the death of said crazy bastard.

Or the death of a buyer like you. That's what I was implying. You must have missed the point.

steveeee wrote:and you don't have to deal tobacco to get killed, it kills thousands already,

I'm not arguing this. Tobacco is harmful to the body and so is cannibis.

steveeee wrote:and who ever told you marijuana makes you violent is BEYOND wrong haha.

I never said this, and my father just got off of jury duty on a trial where somebody was killed in a marijuana deal.

steveeee wrote:and no one ever talks about the benefits of hemp itself, it has so many uses. it can be made into paper and possibly fuel, which is still being tested or so i've read. if people used hemp instead of trees, that would shut up the environmentalists and save the US a lot of money because unlike a tree..hemp doesn't take 40 years to grow so it would be drastically cheaper..but who knows what it can do, if people would just forget about it being used only as a psychedelic drug, and find out what we could really do with it we might get somewhere.

Fuel wise if you're looking to get off of oil there are many more alternatives which are not going against federal law. And of course it can be made into paper. You can make paper out of plants.


steveeee wrote:most people actually believe marijuana is as bad as meth, pills, heroin and coke, its nothing like that. you don't spend 500 dollars a day on marijuana and become insanely addicted. all that happens when you smoke it, you become calm and relaxed, and unlike tobacco it doesn't contain over 1000 unnatural chemicals. thats why i always thought it was funny when i would be taught about drugs my teacher would tell the class it has a higher chance to cause cancer then alcohol or cigarettes, and compare one marijuana cigarette to smoking a whole pack of tobacco cigarettes.

No, but you spend 500 dollars on weed which should be used for more intelligent purposes like buying groceries for your families, paying your bills and buying fuel for your car. But instead you insist on funding drug cartels from Mexico which are murdering thousands in Mexico and has practically sparked an unsung war on the Texas border combating illegal immigration and drug cartels which also supply drugs such as heroin, LSD and methamphetamines. Also comparing one marijuana cigarette to smoking twenty tobacco cigarettes is unrealistic.

steveeee wrote:I also don't understand why there are so many ads in the media saying marijuana is harmful, but the amount of ads for tobacco and alcohol have nearly went away. you almost never see any anti alcohol ads that tell you thousands die every year from alcohol consumption.

Tobacco ads have completely dissapeared. It's illegal to air them. It's not usually the alcohol that kills them, it's the result of an action they committed. (Driving, operating machinery.) When you buy marijuana or any other drug, you're directly funding criminal activity, and may be indirectly funding international criminal activity. My only hope is that one day you realize that your actions have consequences, maybe not on you because marijuana by itself is no more harmful than a cigarette, and I honestly don't care what you do with yourself. But on other people. You spend $500 on cannibis? I spend $30 on cigarettes a month. Sometimes less.
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Post  Meatshield718 6th April 2011, 1:31 am

Honestly I wish I could say that Marijuana and Tobacco would be both banned, but I know it won't happen.

Marijuana isn't a hard-core drug, but it worries me that people under 18 are using it. Heavy users will have a loss in ability to retain information. Chronic Smokers will have issues with many lung diseases and cancers. Many studies show that there is just as much exposure to cancer-causing chemicals from smoking one marijuana joint as smoking five tobacco cigarettes. It can also mess up overall hormones that are essential for adolescent development, and yes, lowers sperm count drastically in males, which can lead to trouble having children.

I'd be OK with people doing it because it's their choice, but I'd rather they didn't. It isn't addictive like many hardcore drugs, but it is mentally addicting at the same level as Alcohol. If you've ever said to yourself you could really use a drink or joint, that's what I'm talking about. It's a reliance on the drug.

Besides...there's other things to spend your money on. >.>
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Post  andrew 6th April 2011, 1:39 am

Meatshield718 wrote:

Besides...there's other things to spend your money on. >.>

Yeah, like other drugs. Jk

I smoked in high school, both cigarettes and marijuana. All I'm going to say is I understand why people do it, but also that I am glad I stopped.Very costly and It definitely does not help with running Sad. Most kids that experiment with drugs grow out of it once they get out of school. Those that don't stop have a harder time in life.
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Post  Made in Finland 6th April 2011, 11:01 am

I wish marijuana would be legalized, just so people would shut the fuck up about it. Seriously, it's so easy to get some these days it would practically become harder to acquire if you had to walk all the way to the store to get some. As it is now, it's being practically pushed on your face even if you don't want it (believe me, I know).

And I wouldn't illegalize alcohol or tobacco either. It's your own body, do whatever the fuck you want with it. And before you even say it, I really wouldn't mind legalizing harder drugs either, but they would seriously need some sort of organized system on how much you can buy each month or something.

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Post  eaustinn36 6th April 2011, 1:00 pm

Meatshield718 wrote:Honestly I wish I could say that Marijuana and Tobacco would be both banned, but I know it won't happen.

Marijuana isn't a hard-core drug, but it worries me that people under 18 are using it. Heavy users will have a loss in ability to retain information. Chronic Smokers will have issues with many lung diseases and cancers. Many studies show that there is just as much exposure to cancer-causing chemicals from smoking one marijuana joint as smoking five tobacco cigarettes. It can also mess up overall hormones that are essential for adolescent development, and yes, lowers sperm count drastically in males, which can lead to trouble having children.

+ infinite to this.

I'll lay down by beliefs right now:

Ideally, Jag, it looks like we just found one thing we can agree on.

Realistically, it is slightly different. As I mentioned before, this has been a touchy issue for me. IMo it comes down to: What is right vs. What works.

I'll also come out and say it: I hate pot. Can't stand the sight of it, and yes subconsiously I probably will think less of you if you use it (referring mainly to my irl friends here). I'm also willing to bet that the majority of people defending the legalization right now have used it at some point of their life.

In an ideal world: weed AND cigarettes should be outright banned, no exceptions. As far as "medical marijuana" goes: yes there are people it would benefit, but the VAST MAJORITY of people using the system are abusing it. California right now is the definition of medical marijuana abuse, in which is why I would support a ban.

For all those saying cigaretes are worse: I agree. However, just because one is worse, doesn't mean the other is harmless. Inhaling any sort of smoke in your lungs can lead to long term negative affects, including cancer. This issue interconnects to one other issue: Healthcare. Want to reduce cancer rates and lower healthcare costs in the US? Well if noone used, they would go down, argueably dramatically.

Alcohol i've been sort of neutral on, as an "outright ban" has proven not to work already. In an ideal world it would be great... but... (this is where I make a complete U-turn in my arguement)...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REALISTICALLY speaking, as of now at least, I am for the legalization (and yes, GOOD arguements on each side have caused me to switch sides, but my "ideal stance" has NEVER changed). So why the sudden backtrack? Well.. the cost exceeds the benefit. Weed is illegal right now, plain and simple. Do I think you should go to jail if caught using it? Absolutely without a doubt (and with that, i'd like to apologize to half the community). HOWEVER, given how much fighting it costs, and given the USA's current economic situation, I think affording it is no longer possible.

Heres the realistic proposal: Legalize it, but tax the crap out of it. Now the gov't has a new major revenue source. Also, since it is now legal, the "mexico drug war" would probably die down (at least a little). This would partially solve the border violence issue. HOWEVER, I do see (if legalized) a dramatic increase in our (the govt's) healthcare bill (as if it wasn't already high enough? - no pun intended). This is why the tax on it would be dramatically high to compensate. BUT wait! Cigarretes are worse? Well, tax them the same. I honestly have been advocating for some time now that the cigarette tax goes dramatically up. What is a box now, roughly $10? I'd advocate for at least $200. Again, this would be necessary to combate increased healthcare costs. The way I see it, if you are doing risky things for your health that raise healthcare costs in which affects everyone, including me (the taxpayer), you deserve to pay for it, even if it is in the form of a tax.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, believe me, I partially hate myself for saying the above, but the issue needs to be addressed realistically. I hate to use the "legalize it and see what happens" approach, but it might be the best option. Police spend far to much time on these minor drug busts versus more serious crimes anyways (this doesn't change the fact though that I still believe you should be arrested). And for those who want to ask the question (that i think I made obvious already): NO, I have no smoked anything in my life, and never will.


@steveee - I would address your points individually, but we talk enough on XBL so you already know.

@Fin - All I can really say is I strongly disagree with your statement, especially the last part. This would argueably destroy a society or person. Nothing really else to say.

@Jag - As I said above, I think we found some common ground. Despite the above, don't get the impression that I don't agree with you.


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Post  Made in Finland 6th April 2011, 1:48 pm

The second part doesn't really reflect my opinions.

But seriously, marijuana is so easy to acquire that legalizing it wouldn't really do any harm. Right now it's just acting as a gateway drug to the harder shit (dealers giving free samples to get people hooked on more addicting drugs). If you could legally acquire marijuana, you wouldn't need to make those shady contacts.

Health risks? Everything has those, if used improperly. And I mean everything. You can even overdose on tomatoes and die from a poisoning. Occasional marijuana usage has positive health effects, but using too much obviously doesn't. That applies to all legal drugs. Painkillers ease pain, but use too much, and you die. Shouldn't they be illegal too? No. It's your own stupidity if you take the whole bottle of pills at once, or drink a bottle of whiskey every day, or smoke 20 bowls of weed every day, and any negative effects that come with it are entirely your own fault. And of those three examples, marijuana probably has the slightest health effects on you.

And I know you said that majority of people defending marijuana have tried it, but nevertheless I'd like to point out that I haven't, and I honestly see nothing bad about legalizing it.
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Post  eaustinn36 6th April 2011, 2:54 pm

I think we agree on legalizing it, but for completely different reasons.

Only thing I want to respond to is the "health risks" point. Yes, everything does have health risks; however, I was refering to things in moderation in the previous post. If you overdose on anything, such as tomatoes as you stated, your health may be negatively impacted. Even worse (like you said) if it is a painkiller, the effects could be lethal.

But, while referring to moderation, Marijuana isn't the same. Yes OD'ing is bad, but using in moderation is bad as well.

Eating 1 tomato per day probably won't do anything long term (or short, unless your allegic or something), but smoking 1 joint per day could have long-term health effects that drive up future healthcare cost, such as an increased risk of heart disease, cancer, or other complications. It isn't a matter of "using it properly"; inhaling that smoke is never good for the body, especially the lungs.

I also don't see any "positive health effects" as mentioned in your post to using it, other than relieving pain for a serious condition (but that is a minority). The only "positive" I can think that anyone would say is that it "relieves stress". This might be true, but there are many many other ways to relieve stress that don't involve inhaling a toxin.
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Post  Made in Finland 6th April 2011, 3:28 pm

It's a shitty point, comparing these three, because they're all dangerous and (arguably) should all be illegal. But, 1 cigarette a day or one bottle of beer a day does more damage than 1 joint a day. And overdosing on marijuana takes like, what, 200 kilo's of the stuff?

And as far as I know, the lung-related diseases marijuana cause are just because you're inhaling smoke. So, it's not really marijuana that's destroying the lungs, it could as well just be nothing but paper. And smoking is not the only way to get the THC off of the marijuana plant.
The only REAL (as in caused by marijuana itself) health hazard I know of is that marijuana stacks up a layer of fat on your brain, which may affect short term memory. That layer of fat dissolves with time, as long as you don't smoke more.
Those two are the only health hazard I've heard of, if there are more, then please do point them out for me.

As for those positive health effects, marijuana actually kills cancer cells. It's even used to treat lung cancer. How about that? It's a powerful Alzheimer medicine too.

In conclusion, I don't mind if marijuana isn't legalized, but I hope it is. And I agree it should be heavily taxed, like tobacco and alcohol are. Though if it's legalized, I imagine that home growing will become increasingly popular. Rolling Eyes
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Post  mboddz751 6th April 2011, 4:43 pm

@ jag again (in terms of your fathers jury duty) stop associating violent people with the substance it self.

But yeah as eaustinn and fin said we should legalize it because its amazingly easy to obtain as of now and our country is still making no profit off of it. That and for numerous reasons listed above.

btw austinn, you can't stand the sight of it? Why?


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Post  Masta Shef 6th April 2011, 4:51 pm

Made in Finland wrote:
In conclusion, I don't mind if marijuana isn't legalized, but I hope it is. And I agree it should be heavily taxed, like tobacco and alcohol are. Though if it's legalized, I imagine that home growing will become increasingly popular. Rolling Eyes

Assuming that the government could do what ever they wanted with this, it would probably be in their best interests to make it illegal to grow marijuana without a license just like it is also illegal(i.e. a felony) to distill your own alcohol without a license.
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Post  Made in Finland 6th April 2011, 5:39 pm

Masta Shef wrote:Assuming that the government could do what ever they wanted with this, it would probably be in their best interests to make it illegal to grow marijuana without a license just like it is also illegal(i.e. a felony) to distill your own alcohol without a license.
And how do you suppose they do that? If marijuana is legal, getting marijuana seeds is going to be even easier than it is now. Like you said, brewing alcohol is illegal too. But there's not much anyone can do about it if someone makes some moonshine on their attic.
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Post  Masta Shef 6th April 2011, 5:43 pm

Well it's illegal to do a lot of things it doesn't mean people won't do them. All i'm saying is that it's the way I see it working out. The government doesn't like people taking profit from what "should" be theirs.
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Post  mboddz751 6th April 2011, 7:01 pm

Jagdgeschwader wrote:But instead you insist on funding drug cartels from Mexico which are murdering thousands in Mexico and has practically sparked an unsung war on the Texas border combating illegal immigration and drug cartels which also supply drugs such as heroin, LSD and methamphetamines.

LOL you good sir just supported my point that it needs to be marketed and legalized in this country. unless you would like to keep it illegal and continue funding criminals (they're where a huge portion of america gets their substances from). Please don't use the cartel as a point against weed when the majority of intelligent users will tell you that we need to cut the publics dependence on the gangs.
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Post  Jagdgeschwader 6th April 2011, 7:16 pm

mboddz751 wrote:
Jagdgeschwader wrote:But instead you insist on funding drug cartels from Mexico which are murdering thousands in Mexico and has practically sparked an unsung war on the Texas border combating illegal immigration and drug cartels which also supply drugs such as heroin, LSD and methamphetamines.

LOL you good sir just supported my point that it needs to be marketed and legalized in this country. unless you would like to keep it illegal and continue funding criminals (they're where a huge portion of america gets their substances from). Please don't use the cartel as a point against weed when the majority of intelligent users will tell you that we need to cut the publics dependence on the gangs.

So since you aren't murdering them directly it's not your fault. Pretty much what you just said. Criminal activity is still criminal. How about instead YOU don't contribute to this unsung war just because you want to escape reality for a while.

Again, by your example we might as well legalize all controlled substances since that would end the cartel right? No more business for them and the genocide stops!

That's not how things work my friend. And I will associate the violence with these drugs because that's what they cause. Directly or indirectly.

And Erik, criminal activity is criminal. We're not so bankrupt that we can't stop spread of these illegal substances. Even still, I agree with just getting rid of cigarettes completely even though I smoke them and wouldn't personally like it. I'm willing to take the hit for a larger cause than I.

Made in Finland wrote:And as far as I know, the lung-related diseases marijuana cause are just because you're inhaling smoke.

This goes the same for tobacco. Smoking it is what causes lung cancer. Tobacco itself won't give you cancer, but all of the additives will and so will the smoke it makes.
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Post  Masta Shef 6th April 2011, 8:25 pm

Geeze sometimes you guys are like politicians you just beat around the bush. I'm pretty sure we're only talking about the legalization of marijuana. This in no way promotes fighting, murdering or drug cartels. The reason that Mexico is such a shithole is because of their own government.
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Post  Jagdgeschwader 6th April 2011, 8:32 pm

Their government started a war on the drug cartels and has been combating them for years. Pretty responsible thing to do if you ask me.

And shef, if you're going to address marijuana legalization, there are a lot of odds and ends that go into it. That's why politics are so tiring, because there is no one solid answer. Every issue is covered in tangents and skewing and what you think wouldn't correlate to one another actually does.

For instance:
1. You buy marijuana
2. Dealer is given money
3. Dealer's boss is given a cut for capitalizing
4. Boss works for cartel
5. Money goes to buying black market weapons and more drugs.
6. The war rages on and more innocent men and women die.

That's highly generalized but is pretty much the line.
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Post  steveeeee 6th April 2011, 8:47 pm

Masta Shef wrote:Geeze sometimes you guys are like politicians you just beat around the bush. I'm pretty sure we're only talking about the legalization of marijuana. This in no way promotes fighting, murdering or drug cartels. The reason that Mexico is such a shithole is because of their own government.

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Post  Masta Shef 6th April 2011, 8:47 pm

It's pretty black & white to me. If you want to smoke, smoke. It's your choice just like it is to do anything. The same laws applying to alcohol/cigarettes should apply to marijuana, i.e. drinking and driving, no smoking within x amount of feet/yards of a public building.

Mexico on the other hand is like I said, a shithole. Especially within the last 5 or so years. The crime is so out of hand that their military has to do the job of the law enforcement. If you pay any attention to gun news too you probably also know that they blame the U.S. for all of their gun crime. So contrary to what you say the Mexican government is not "responsible".

P.S. Jag, find where I said that if marijuana was legalized that drug cartels would be involved.


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All bout america - Page 14 Empty Re: All bout america

Post  Meatshield718 6th April 2011, 8:58 pm

@ Fin

The reason why smoking pot isn't as harmful as smoking a cigarette is because of the amount that is smoked a day. A pack a day smoker is going to be at far more risk than a person who smokes one joint a day, but one to one, smoking pot is a lot worse for you. Not only that, be generally a person that is smoking marijuana will spend more time with the smoke inhaled to get a greater high out if it, which presents a much greater period of time for harmful chemicals and matter to collect in the lungs. Marijuana smoking won't present a huge risk for Cancer, but it will raise risks in many lung and throat diseases such as bronchitis, TB, etc.

Also, you wouldn't want to smoke a joint if you are having trouble with cancer. THC has shown some cancer fighting properties, but it would be medically applied outside of the actual plant, rather than smoking it. The reason why it could be used to stop cancer is because it can kill off weak or dysfunctional cells that could become cancerous. It is no cure for a cancerous cell.
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