All bout america

KZ Powned wrote:Can someone lock this shit

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, there's nothing wrong with this topic.

So anyways.. keeping the conversation going, what's next?

How about gun control/crime? (unless anyone else has another suggestion).

What is the best thing to do? Harsher gun control laws, more open laws? Do you support or believe every American should own a gun? What are your views on the 2nd amendment? This could also lead into Immigration.

I'll leave the debate open for someone else to kick off before I get into it (that, and it's too late for me to think clearly)

I honestly don't have a view either way on gun control. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about it. I'm totally willing for someone to educate me and persuade me one way about it, though.

My opinion on gun laws.

Only give guns to people with clean records. (I know that doesn't really guarantee shit, but it's better than some asshole living off of welfare who robs places every day getting one.)

Just give me a god damn AK-105 and some ammo and I'll be fine for the rest of my life.

As far as I know, most guns used in crimes are illegally bought, so I wouldn't say legal guns cause a lot of trouble. Though I don't think anyone needs a gun, unless they actually use it on hunting, for example.

Bladewind23 wrote:Only give guns to people with clean records. (I know that doesn't really guarantee shit, but it's better than some asshole living off of welfare who robs places every day getting one.)

You mean someone with a criminal record can get a gun in the US?! Wow...

Made in Finland wrote:
You mean someone with a criminal record can get a gun in the US?! Wow...

You CAN but you will have to file an application and get accepted to make sure you won't be a threat to anyone if you own a gun. It also depends what kind of crime is on your criminal record. If it's anything involving assault or murder don't even bother.

andr_00_ew wrote:

Made in Finland wrote:
You mean someone with a criminal record can get a gun in the US?! Wow...

You CAN but you will have to file an application and get accepted to make sure you won't be a threat to anyone if you own a gun. It also depends what kind of crime is on your criminal record. If it's anything involving assault or murder don't even bother.

It depends on the state, but let's say it's the south..

- Guy walks into gunshop, says he wants gun
- Gunshop owner does quick half-assed 5 min background check
- Shop owner says "ok!", and the guy has a gun (unless there is a waiting list)
- I a few cases, guy turns around a couple days later... and say.. shoot up a college campus? This has happened multiple times..

Heck, there even used to be a BANK in Texas (dunno if they still do this) that would give a free loaded shotgun to any customer that would open an account with them.

We have loosest gun laws, and are one of the highest (if not the highest) in gun related crime. I sense a connection.

Probably will get a lot of hate for this from a few members, but IMO the 2nd amendment needs to be amended.

eaustinn36 wrote:

andr_00_ew wrote:

Made in Finland wrote:
You mean someone with a criminal record can get a gun in the US?! Wow...

You CAN but you will have to file an application and get accepted to make sure you won't be a threat to anyone if you own a gun. It also depends what kind of crime is on your criminal record. If it's anything involving assault or murder don't even bother.

It depends on the state, but let's say it's the south..

- Guy walks into gunshop, says he wants gun
- Gunshop owner does quick half-assed 5 min background check
- Shop owner says "ok!", and the guy has a gun (unless there is a waiting list)
- I a few cases, guy turns around a couple days later... and say.. shoot up a college campus? This has happened multiple times..

Heck, there even used to be a BANK in Texas (dunno if they still do this) that would give a free loaded shotgun to any customer that would open an account with them.

We have loosest gun laws, and are one of the highest (if not the highest) in gun related crime. I sense a connection.

Probably will get a lot of hate for this from a few members, but IMO the 2nd amendment needs to be amended.

I don't think it should be completely amended, that's a bit extreme. Definitely needs to be much more strict and controlled. For instance, any sort of felony or misdemeanor on your criminal record should prohibit you from getting your gun license.

Gun related crimes won't end if you ban guns, you can always get a gun illegally. It will go down, yes, that a given. But then the people that own guns now and are not at all a threat to anyone while in possession of them, like people who hunt, can't have them. Most gun owners don't suddenly shoot up a college campus, there will always be that occasional incident where they do, but we really can't control when a person snaps.

Erik, yes there needs to be stricter gun laws but i dont think making it a pian in the ass and have to go through a whole bunch of unnessasary bullshit will make a noticable difference. I know a few people who ilegally own guns, that doesnt mean they are going to go shoot someone or gunna rob someone. Also i dont understand why you cant own ARs. I mean who wouldnt wanna go hunting with an accurate rifle, they can quickly put multiple shorts down range with? Yes we have had (like you said) people who have gone on killing sprees but the thing is, if they planned on doing it, they would have found a way to get a gun. Just because its easy to get guns doesnt mean that making it a pain in the ass is going to stop someone from getting one, if someone really wants to go shoot up a store or collage, they are going to find a way to get a gun plain and simple. It may take a few more days but they still will. Also gangs, same thing goes for them. If they realy want guns, they will find a way. Think about it like this, if you are planning on going and robbing a store. But you know for a fact that they have a gun, you're not going to rob that store. What if everyne owned a gun? I think that would lower crime levels because have to have a death wish to rob someone you know has a gun.

To those who have double posted,

Don't do it again. <3

Concerning the gun laws I'll post a link below showing you what states let you do what. To give a counter point to EAustinn, states in the South don't all have the same gun laws. To purchase a firearm you must first be 18 years of age (21 to own a handgun in some if not all states) and not have any felonies. Second, gun shop employees are required to give a background check. It is against the law to sell a firearm to a felon (this applies to private sales aswell), so assuming the person giving the background check doesn't want to go to prison he won't half ass the background check. In fact giving background checks in my area has worked previously at getting criminals off the street. Last but not least, it is up to the seller's discretion to sell a firearm, they may refuse sale to anyone they want. Also google "Don't lie for the other guy". We don't need stricter gun laws, we need stricter enforcement of the laws we already have.

P.S. Here is the link for state gun laws:http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/#?st=VA

P.P.S. Don't listen to Tophat from what I read he was making completly false statements.

Masta Shef wrote:

P.P.S. Don't listen to Tophat from what I read he was making completly false statements.

Really now? How so?

Tophat 44 wrote:

Masta Shef wrote:

P.P.S. Don't listen to Tophat from what I read he was making completly false statements.

Really now? How so?

Check your facts buddy.

Tophat 44 wrote:Also i dont understand why you cant own ARs. I mean who wouldnt wanna go hunting with an accurate rifle, they can quickly put multiple shorts down range with?

I can think of a million reasons why someone who's serious about hunting would not want an assault rifle.

They're not the most accurate weapons, you only need one shot to stop an animal, and multiple shots will ruin the game.

Made in Finland wrote:

Tophat 44 wrote:Also i dont understand why you cant own ARs. I mean who wouldnt wanna go hunting with an accurate rifle, they can quickly put multiple shorts down range with?

I can think of a million reasons why someone who's serious about hunting would not want an assault rifle.

They're not the most accurate weapons, you only need one shot to stop an animal, and multiple shots will ruin the game.

Back when i was taking my hunters education course there was a kid there who said he hunts with a ak 47 and he says that it was just fine. But i dont know.

Made in Finland wrote:

Tophat 44 wrote:Also i dont understand why you cant own ARs. I mean who wouldnt wanna go hunting with an accurate rifle, they can quickly put multiple shorts down range with?

I can think of a million reasons why someone who's serious about hunting would not want an assault rifle.

They're not the most accurate weapons, you only need one shot to stop an animal, and multiple shots will ruin the game.

I thought you meant about other things. That was a joke.

sgt zombie23 wrote:Back when i was taking my hunters education course there was a kid there who said he hunts with a ak 47 and he says that it was just fine. But i dont know.

It's a gun, it kills things. Of course you can use it to hunt, but that's not very smart. Especially an AK. It's not very accurate at all, and the caliber is too big so it would destroy too much of the game.

Made in Finland wrote:

sgt zombie23 wrote:Back when i was taking my hunters education course there was a kid there who said he hunts with a ak 47 and he says that it was just fine. But i dont know.

It's a gun, it kills things. Of course you can use it to hunt, but that's not very smart. Especially an AK. It's not very accurate at all, and the caliber is too big so it would destroy too much of the game.

An M16 is pretty damn accurate, and the caliber is reasonible. But still, i would rather use a .12 gauge to hunt.

Made in Finland wrote:

sgt zombie23 wrote:Back when i was taking my hunters education course there was a kid there who said he hunts with a ak 47 and he says that it was just fine. But i dont know.

It's a gun, it kills things. Of course you can use it to hunt, but that's not very smart. Especially an AK. It's not very accurate at all, and the caliber is too big so it would destroy too much of the game.

I didnt say you couldnt use it to hunt im saying that when he used it to hunt it worked just fine. But of course after hearing this

Made in Finland wrote:
and the caliber is too big so it would destroy too much of the game.

I suppose it would be a bad idea.

Made in Finland wrote:It's a gun, it kills things. Of course you can use it to hunt, but that's not very smart. Especially an AK. It's not very accurate at all, and the caliber is too big so it would destroy too much of the game.

Before .223 people hunted with 30-06. After .223 people still hunted with 30-06. The 30-06 is a full power rifle cartridge yet it's not "too big". If anything .223 is too small to be used for large game and is considered more for varmint hunting. BTW the 7.62x39 the AK-47 or AK-47 varients use IS SMALLER than the 30-06. The 30-06 is still used today in many "hunting rifles". Use facts!!!

Just to be clear, the only legal type of assault rifles in the US are civilian variants. Usually meaning they are semi-automatic only and aren't as powerful.

andr_00_ew wrote:Just to be clear, the only legal type of assault rifles in the US are civilian variants. Usually meaning they are semi-automatic only and aren't as powerful.

"Power" has nothing to do with it to an extent. The only law dealing with power has to do with Destructive Devices i.e. guns exceding 12.7mm(.50) in caliber or anything explosive. Any fullautomatic firearm made before 1986 is legal as long as you can obtain a "Class III" firearms permit and pay a $200 taxstamp.

Masta Shef wrote:Before .223 people hunted with 30-06. After .223 people still hunted with 30-06. The 30-06 is a full power rifle cartridge yet it's not "too big". If anything .223 is too small to be used for large game and is considered more for varmint hunting. BTW the 7.62x39 the AK-47 or AK-47 varients use IS SMALLER than the 30-06. The 30-06 is still used today in many "hunting rifles". Use facts!!!

Shot through the scapula, and that thing won't move anywhere no matter how big it is. That's how we do it here, but everything in the US is bigger, in good and bad...

Sorry for the late response guys!

I'm finding i'm agreeing with Finland on most of his points.

Gun control has always been a "touchy" issue to me in the US. It's not like the "economy" or "healthcare", where I believe there is a clear answer starring us in the face. No matter what we do, there will always be gun violence, especially here in the US. We were founded on violence, we have the second amendment, and the "culture" of a "cowboy". This can't really be changed at all to a maximum degree. However, all that being said, I think there are steps we can take to reduce gun related incidents from occurring. Even just preventing one extra shooting at a time, it is good enough for me.

I am aware the gun "illegal" market exists; it is everywhere. However, while "restricting" legal guns won't stop guns, it will still be harder to obtain one. Granted maybe most criminals will go through all the trouble to obtain one illegally (which also needs to be cracked down on, but don't have a clear plan atm for that), but there would be some (or maybe most) that wouldn't even bother. Making it harder to obtain a gun is key.

Now for those who have known me awhile, you already know my position on this: Every gun in the US, with the exception of pistols (personal protection), and some hunting rifles (for the pro-hunting people) should be outright banned. Semi-Automatic weapons are used for NOTHING but murdering people. Yes, you can use an AK or other gun as mentioned above for hunting, but it is highly impractical, and unless your hunting an elephant, you don't need a full clip to bring down a deer. I personally hate hunting, but, that's my opinion. I respect everyone else who still wishes to hunt, and I see no problem with it, BUT a simple hunting rifle is all you need. All these other guns, from UZI's to AR's, should be military only. I for one would flip out if I ever saw someone with an AR in public strapped around them, who isn't law enforcement. Thankfully, New York isn't the south, and our gun laws are fine to me.

Also, thank you Masta Shef for the link previously; it gave me a sense of what the differences are around the country compared to where I live.


Now, for one major point I want to address:

Tophat 44 wrote:What if everyne owned a gun? I think that would lower crime levels because have to have a death wish to rob someone you know has a gun.

Oh my god; hell no to this. If everyone owned a gun, it would be chaos. People would be getting shot right and left. I'm not saying everyone is bad in nature, but it will still happen. First off, WHY would you want to live in a society with SO much tension? Walking down the street every day scared as shit your going to die. What about the crazies out there? Okay, let's say we allow everyone except them to own a gun; obtaining one for them is now easier than ever! Just simply find someone all alone (maybe an alley of a city of something), mug them, and hey!, let the killing spree begin. ALSO, you know how many people lose things in real life, like cell phones or whatever? Now imagine guns. A place like NYC would become GTA4: Just pick up a gun on the street lying down.

Now, one of my major points: Friendly fire. You know how much occurs in the trained military? Now imagine an untrained civilian population. If everyone is to own a gun, training would have to take place for everyone, which would cost the country Billions of dollars; not something we need right now. Not to mention, that some people (while mentally stable to own a gun), just hate them (like me), and would not take kindly to being given a gun in the first place. And there are MANY people like me in this country, so don't call me a minority on this issue; lots of people don't like the idea of civilian wielded AK's. Now, expanding on the first point in this paragraph, let's use an hypothetical example:

- Your shopping in a crowded grocery store. All of a sudden, someone (who has a mental unstable background and obtained a gun through the above methods) draws there gun and points it at the cashier, demanding all of the money. Since everyone owns a gun, everyone draws theirs. Now, either it is a stand-off, or someone fires the first shot. But wait; he's mentally unstable: he shoots the cashier. Multiple people in the store fire on him; but wait! Not everyone is accurate, some people miss and hit others. Then, other people think they are also crazy and fire upon them. Hey, can anyone smell a chain reaction? Eventually, you got 100+ dead bodies on the floor. Now, multiply this incident by the entire country, and you got.. millions dead! Not sounding to great to me... Now lets say noone except the robber had a gun. First off, the chances he could obtain a gun in the first place aren't that likely, since he is mentally unstable, and can't find a gun lying on the street, or from someone alone (as mentioned above). IF he is still able to obtain one, let's say the cashier still dies, maybe a couple other people. But overall, there are less dead bodies at the end of the day. Not to mention, some or most of these situations would be prevented considering it is not harder to obtain a gun.


Now, for my last point: Smart gun technology. There are guns out there that actually recognize the owner by fingerprint or etc.., and will not fire unless in the owners hands. Remember how I said imo I would allow personally only pistols and some hunting rifles? Well, there is a massive catch to those pistols: they must be smart guns. I can sort of see how personal defense might be needed, especially down south or midwest, but you don't need an AR strapped around you to do so. Even pistols, if stolen, can pose a massive threat to others. If only the owner could fire it, that would make it so much better.

This doesn't address obtaining a gun in the first place though (sry, this is my last point actually). While smart guns imo would help, what if a mentally unstable person could obtain a smart gun? This is why I propose (and think we need) FAR more extensive background checks, especially down south where they hand out guns in some areas like water. None of this 5-10 min BS, do a full research on this person. I'm talking weeks here, not days. Maybe even months if necessary, such as if they find something that doesn't quite look right and want to look into it further. This would increase waiting lists of course, and maybe piss off some people, but imo our safety is worth it.


Well, that sums up my stance on it. I'll add in further for responses or expanding on points, or if I forgot something.

You are missing the point completely. EAustinn I would really love to see you put as much time into researching gun laws, gun safety, gun philosophies, etc. as you do making up disimformation about them. As far as hunting goes you check your local laws, but in everystate it is ILLEGAL to hunt with fullauto firearms. Hunting with a weapon holding more than 3 rounds is also ILLEGAL(atleast in NJ), so you can't hunt with a rifle using a NORMAL CAPACITY 30 round MAGAZINE.

As for out right banning semi autos you have no reason to say something like that. You give out the false sense that you are okay with having guns by saying you think HANDGUNS are okay for self defense, but in reality the same good people that you "trust" with the Right To Carry handguns are also the same people that own rifles. If you hadn't left the party yesterday when we were having this discussion you would understand rifles are just as important if not more important in some situations. After Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans there was no rule of law, meaning since the Police weren't able to do their jobs a lot of people took advantage of the situation. This includes but is not limited to looting stores, robbing houses, and in some cases fighting. My neighbor has seen this first hand, and in a situation like this your life is completly in your own hands.

When a snow storm is about to hit, you know what people do? They prepare themselves with food and other items incase they can't drive to the store. Gun owners hope for the best but, prepare for the worst.

Edit: I did not re-cover the points I already made because if you aren't going to acknowledge that I made them the first time i'm not going to repeat myself.