All bout america

Holy crap this topic exploded in the last 24 hours.

I'm not even going to begin to address all of the points (but i'll try for most of them), but I can see who is clearly liberal and conservative through this.

I can also say I agree with a few people, and strongly disagree with others.

I can also say that we (USA) are one of the only industrialized countries without a progressive tax rate. Should we tax the rich more? IMO heck yes, lay it on them. Greed is horrible, and if your making millions (or billions) every year, and you don't want to pay more to help out the people struggling below the poverty line, imo you are a horrible person. America is the "land of opportunity" is it not? Well actually, it is, but only for some people. Not everyone is given the same chance to make it big like others are. If a billionare has to pay an extra million or two in taxes, he won't even feel it. There are people in this country struggling to even survive on an income of $10,000 each year, or less. The middle class over the past few years has been slowly disappearing, and that is the danger in capitalism. Rich get richer, and poor get poorer. Eventually (without govt intervention), you'll end up with an extreme situation when 1% of the population makes billions, and the rest make under $20,000 each year. Then, revolution occurs. The the cycle repeats itself; it's horrible. Most people aren't poor because they are "lazy", to think so is just ignorant. I consider myself "upper-middle class". Do I mind paying more taxes? No, actually I don't. Considering there are less fortunate people out there, I wouldn't mind if taxes were raised at this second. Considering we have a deficit to reduce, this is one of the ways to solve it.

As for healthcare in this nation: Republicans can sweeten it up all they want, but we have a borderline 3rd world healthcare system. The fact that we have around 50 million people (maybe 1/7 of the population) uninsured or underinsured is just pathetic on many levels. We are the ONLY industrialized nation w/o some sort of Universal System, and I think it is about time we take the hint. We are also one of the only nations who don't use the metric system; do we like to just be different of something?? Universal Healthcare is needed, period. The only people who would disagree with this are the rich (who can afford care anyways), or the lower classes that are brainwashed watching Fox News (in which imo is not even a creditable news organization; more like "Fox's Conservative Political Propaganda Agenda Network".

As for military: As i've stated before; we way overspend. If others want to take a "cold war arms rae" stance on it, fine, but that doesn't change the fact that we spend more on military than any other country. Some state others lie about military spending: So what? Are we that paranoid that we will get invaded. Besides, it is there loss; less fuinds to go towards education. Look at Germany for example (I like to reference Europe as a role model for those who didn't know already), they barely spend much at all on military. And what does that give them? Try the most powerful economy in Europe, one of the best Healthcare systems, and a deficit in which does not exist. It's not rocket science, cut military finding already. The fact that Republicans would rather cut education and other domestic essentials first (which are under funded considering are education system barely rank above Mexico), is just disgusting.

As for our policy on wars: Stop invading people already! What business did we have in Iraq? Nothing (cept oil maybe). What business do we have in Libya? Nothing. We as a nation have NO RIGHT to be an international police. The conflict in Libya is at this point a Civil War. How would the USA like it if other countries assisted one side during our civil war? We would be pissed, that's what. The fact that we intervene to "protect our interests" is just being an international bully. No wonder the middle east hates us! We piss them off everyday. The way I see it we are just asking for another 9/11. And now that the Iraq war is done, we are starting one with Libya? For the love of god stop starting wars we can't afford! As I said before, domestic first, other expenses later.

And that's all from me for now.

I wouldn't say I'm conservative or liberal. I like views on both sides. Like for conservatives I like the freedom to own a gun, and that they actually support the military, but I hate that they're fighting over the silliest things like abortion or gay marriage. WHO CARES ABOUT THAT.... there are many much more serious things we should be worried about.Times are changing.

Military basically recycles the money, it basically makes it way back to people in service.

Andrew, I can't tell if you read eaustin's post since he brought up some very good points contrary to you and jadge.

More and more I find myself agreeing with everything that eaustinn says.

Also..

KZ Powned wrote:

BTW this topic is dumb as shit and will only start a flam war

andr_00_ew wrote:This topic is a spark that will soon cause a forest fire. End it

I read his points, I mainly replied to conservative/liberal thing. I'm not going to keep retyping my posts, I'm sure jadge doesn't want to either. I see your reasoning, but I'm staying by my points

Progressive taxing and poor support? We got this.

We have progressive taxing, and progressive support for the poor.
The system works well, though there are some scum who leech off of the system too. The reason I love the system is because it supports students. And that's progressive too, with rich parents you only get a few dozen dollars, with poor background you get the full support up to a few hundred euros. If you have other expenses, you might get extra support for them. For example, a rental apartment. You'll get 80% of the rent, or up to 220€ a month. Also not living with your parents automatically gives you the full basic support, which for someone over 18 I think you can get up to 300€, so those combined you'd afford a rent at a block of flats, though you'd only have like 20-50€ left of your support every month which isn't even enough for a food. If you have a roommate though, things'll work better.

Though as for me, 75% of that support goes to travel costs because I live on a campus and that somehow contradicts with the travel support, even though it's still like 50€ a week.
Actually some of it goes on alcohol because I'm an idiot, and then I have to dig up money from my own pockets just to get to school.

tl;dr: Finland > US

Andrew, I'm having a hard time seeing your argument when Austin so eloquently countered every one of your points.

andr_00_ew wrote:Also..

KZ Powned wrote:

BTW this topic is dumb as shit and will only start a flam war

andr_00_ew wrote:This topic is a spark that will soon cause a forest fire. End it

LOL. ignore austinn's counterpoints and then call for the topic to be ended when you are backed into a corner.

I'm not in any corner. Nothing really new has been brought to topic if you read everything, its all been addressed. Everything about corporate greed, deteriorating middle class, military, etc. I just don't feel like retyping my responses

Find something in Erik's post that already hasn't been addressed somewhere in this topic and I'll respond to it.

How do you respond to the very true facts that we're the only industrialized country without universal healthcare, progressive tax rates/progressive help, the middle class is disappearing due to corporate greed, and we are overspending in the military?

LOL. This thread is repetitive as hell.

1) I have nothing against Universal health care at the moment, because I have not said a peep about it, mainly because I'm not concerned about it because I will never have to deal with it, so if anything.. indifferent
2) Taxing the rich and giving it to the poor? I already replied to that also by saying that it won't work, at least not in this country. I basically said that some people have advantages and disadvantages in life, and just because someone is rich and earned it, greedily or not, he should not have to give it up. Its that person's money, he/she should be able to do with it as they please. There would be absolutely NO POINT of going to school or college for a job. You're just going to get the money you earned taken away from you lol.
3) The middle class is disappearing because of the economy, once it recovers, which it will, the middle class will reappear. The poor will always be poor, the rich will always be rich, and the middle class will go up or down depending on the economy.

4) I am pretty sure that I already mentioned that the military basically recycles the money because of this post 4 pages back.

andr_00_ew wrote:Didn't want to jump back into this, but the US armed forces give soldiers a SHIT TON of benefits. They pay for food, housing, clothing, and anything else that you need while serving. In addition, they actually pay you. So you don't pay for almost everything, while you get paid. Not to mention that fat $85,000 check you get after you get discharged to pay for any 4 year state college you get into. That's even for the shortest enlistment. So if anything, the military is helping people. That's a major reason why our spending is so high, because we pay so much for every single person. In a way its a cycle, spend a lot, get most of it back. Do you see other countries on that list doing anything similar? In some of those countries its a requirement to serve and you get almost nothing for it. Its not like our military is just burning the money they get. Yes they make a lot of weapons, yes they sell most of them. Its been like this FOREVER. We've always overproduced and sold to other countries, in WW2 all allies basically used were American weapons, and we made bank because of it.

So basically, leave the military alone.

Masta Shef wrote:LOL. This thread is repetitive as hell.

Word, all of this shit has been addressed already.

Edit: adding to my previous post. Personal example, if I was rich, I would donate some of my money because I'll have plenty in the future to charities and so on, but that should be a personal choice. If you want to do it, do so, if not, don't. This isn't a communist country. If you have money, do what you want with it.

2.) Explain to me exactly why it wouldn't work in this country. It works in Finland, why not here? And since you bring up college and students, allow me to point out that school is HELLA expensive. Most students are in debt by the time they're done with college. A lot of people can't even afford college for one reason or another. Doesn't this seem a bit odd to you? Our colleges and universities are among the most expensive in the world, yet we don't provide progressive help like in countires like Finland.

3.) Why is the economy in the current downfall it's in? If you're going to state that, when it recovers, the middle class will recover, I'd like to hear your belief as to why we are in the current economic downfall.

4.) So we give out insanely high benefits. That doesn't really explain why our military budget is much higher than any other country. To be fair, everything you stated would be perfectly fine if it weren't for the fact that money being used for the military could be better used applied to health care or our education system. Plus, do you really believe that us selling our weapons and technology is such a plus? Where do you think the Middle East got their weapons? The military isn't helping people beyond helping soldiers. The money applied to the military could be better used to help ALL people rather than few.

Allow me to state that if you believe this thread is "repetitive as hell" and would rather not post or reply to any argument, feel free to do so.

TOPIC LOCKED But if I may say your doing great to illustrate why group think is bad

andr_00_ew wrote:
2) Taxing the rich and giving it to the poor? I already replied to that also by saying that it won't work, at least not in this country. I basically said that some people have advantages and disadvantages in life, and just because someone is rich and earned it, greedily or not, he should not have to give it up. Its that person's money, he/she should be able to do with it as they please. There would be absolutely NO POINT of going to school or college for a job. You're just going to get the money you earned taken away from you lol.

You got a pretty strange idea of progressive tax and support.

The support will be nowhere near for anyone to live a comfortable life. As I said in the post about how it's done in Finland, if you rack up all the support you get, you won't even be able to afford food even though you have a roof on top of your head. The money isn't enough to live luxuriously on a house of your own, doing nothing all day, just eating as much as you want and playing on a 100" TV with a PS3. No. It's a struggle to find a job so you don't have to count each cent when you go to the cheapest grocery store you can find.

Slacking off and not going to school or a job for your entire life means an entire life with an income of less than 10000$ a year. If that's worth it, and makes college useless in your opinion then be my guest and try to live a month without using more than 1000$ to pay all the bills and food of your household.

2) I am in school. We do offer help to students. Scholarships, bank loans, COLLEGE loans, and guess what... $85,000 post 9/11 GI bill from the armed forces. With the loans, you have to pay them back. You're thinking, that wont be a problem, I'll have a well paying job after I finish college right? Possibly, but the problem is, its going to be taxed, a lot, assuming that what you want to happen will happen, which most likely won't, because there are less fortunate people. So why not become one of the less fortunate people? They don't have to pay back anything, while our students will have to. Which will discourage people from even going to school, because they'll just get free shit anyway. Now before I get flamed for this, I'll be as clear as I possibly can. LIFE IS NOT FAIR, SOME PEOPLE HAVE ADVANTAGES/DISADVANTAGES. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE POOR/RICH PEOPLE. Chances are most rich people will be dicks and not want to help the poor.

3) Too many people took out loans they couldn't pay, bought houses they couldn't afford and there a pointless war going on at the moment. With that I can basically predict the next flame " BUT IF YOU SUPPORT THE MILITARY WHY DON'T YOU SUPPORT THE WAR!!!!!!".
Because I'm not a fucking moron, war is never good, yeah it can boost the economy, but overall it helps nobody. There's a difference between being pro-military and pro-war. The military helps people, through college, like the student thing you mentioned, it gives jobs etc. Defense is always important too. Many countries hate us, the world isn't filled with rainbows, lollipops and warm fuzzies.

4) Our military has the best benefits in the world compared to others, our equipment, training, schooling, and death machine crafting also costs more. Hey by the way did you happen to read the post I quoted like twice already? Also, not even America is stupid enough to sell weapons to their enemies. Do you see any middle eastern combatants with M4s? Nope. What we gave them when they were occupied by communists does not count because they were allies at the time. Also, that's mainly what soldiers are doing now in the middle east. Destroying all the weapons/explosive they can find.

This topic is really boosting my post # lol

2.) Read Finland's post. Your idea of progressive help/progressive tax rate is that the rich lose all of their money and the poor don't have to work. That is not how it works. At all. You still didn't answer my question. If progressive help works in other countries, why not here? What makes us so special? You are right. Some people have advantages and others have disadvantages. I am appalled that you would encourage that type of behavior, though. It doesn't need to be encouraged. It should be discouraged. Nothing you said here addresses anything I said in my earlier post. Loans are help in the strictest sense because they allow people to go to college yet they send people in debt. Is that really help? No, it's not.

3.) You kind of shot yourself in the foot with this one. Why did the two wars we're funding cause a depression? Because of military overspending and a defense budget that is incredibly high. Why can't people afford to pay their loans and pay off their houses? Maybe if we could provide some type of progressive hel this wouldn't happen as often.

4.) "Doesn't count"? Are you delusional? Of course it counts! It doesn't matter if they were allies then, they are enemies now and are using weapons and technology we sold to them against us.

andr_00_ew wrote:2) I am in school. We do offer help to students. Scholarships, bank loans, COLLEGE loans, and guess what... $85,000 post 9/11 GI bill from the armed forces. With the loans, you have to pay them back. You're thinking, that wont be a problem, I'll have a well paying job after I finish college right? Possibly, but the problem is, its going to be taxed, a lot, assuming that what you want to happen will happen, which most likely won't, because there are less fortunate people. So why not become one of the less fortunate people? They don't have to pay back anything, while our students will have to. Which will discourage people from even going to school, because they'll just get free shit anyway. Now before I get flamed for this, I'll be as clear as I possibly can. LIFE IS NOT FAIR, SOME PEOPLE HAVE ADVANTAGES/DISADVANTAGES. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE POOR/RICH PEOPLE. Chances are most rich people will be dicks and not want to help the poor.

How stupid are you, really? You don't need the loan in the first place if you get funded equally by the government. And if you WANT the loan you can still take it. It's a win win in every aspect...

Edit: And before you even say anything, let's make it clear. Those college graduates will then get a job, and from the money they make, the government takes back those funds equally from everyone as taxes. It just won't make you lose your credit reference because you went to college and didn't get a job.

Going to go backwards this time because I'm bored.

4) We helped them out, they were allies at the time. The only mistake we made was once they fucked up the communists, that we left. We should have stayed there until everything was in order, not let some fucking yahoos make there own way of controlling people. We also left the weapons there, big mistake. We fucked up back then. We can't really fix our previous mistake anymore then we are now.. which is by A) Not selling them anymore weapons, which is what we're doing B) Destroying the weapons we find, again, which is what we're doing

3) We're pulling out of the war soon, in case you haven't noticed. So there goes that intense military spending you were talking about. Once we're out of the war and all the benefits are untouched, everything will be just fine and dandy. So not only do we look better on that pretty graph, we don't have to change any of the good things. If we weren't pulling out of the war, I'd agree with the cutting of the military funds. But since its going to go down on its own once we're out of there, I will say it again, leave the military alone. When I'm going to be in the military, its basically going to something my dad calls "garrison warfare" which is basically this: Less deployments, more training, more schooling. Basically preparing for the next excuse to invade a country with something important we can use.

2) There is nothing to encourage or discourage about advantages or disadvantages. It mostly depends on how lucky you are, backtracking to the whole " born into wealth" and "greed" thing. Its the sad truth, there's not much we can do. College is not for everyone. It's basically for people with ambition, if you go 4 years and still don't know what you want to do, you fucked up and don't belong there lol. All the help you're going to get is a loan sadly, the government won't give you free money unless they feel you deserve it. Which is a scholarship. I didn't get a scholarship, I am not brilliant. I bit the bullet and took a loan because I knew what I wanted to do. If you don't want to be in debt, don't go to college or work your ass off. Sorry.

We can't help everybody go to college

Anyway, I'll be back around 7:30 to continue

Made in Finland wrote:
How stupid are you, really?

People with different opinions are stupid apparently

derpderp